Anonymous

Watercoil and a/c coil failure

I had the premium waterfurnace installed in 2002.The unit worked pretty good for several years although the savings were not nearly as much as advertised.The unit was warrenteed for 10 years.In the 11th year.an a/c repairman found a leak in the water coil,the unit that supplies hot water.The leak was pretty bad,causing an extreme increase in water usage.The cost to repair was about $2000.00.During another examination,a leak was found in the main coil,the heart of the unit.The cost to repair would be $3000.00.A replacement was advised as the warrenty would be only one year.The cost to replace would be 12000.00 to 13500.00.Waterfurnace would not offer any reduction although the unit was only one year out of warrenty.I would not advise the installation of the waterfurnace unit due to cost and lack of help from Waterfurnace.These units are supposed to last anywhere from 20 to 25 years

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Loss:
$12500
Anonymous
map-marker Dunkirk, Maryland

Waterfurnace - Geothermal System Review from Dunkirk, Maryland

I have 2geothermal 3 ton each home is approx. 5 K sq.ft. l live in MD. They replaced 2 heat pumps, my elected. bill runs from $400+ to over$600 a month. Inst. Co. Over charges for non faulty parts. Will never have another unless someone can fix this 5yr. Old Unit
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Reason of review:
Problems with payment
3 comments
Guest

Me again ! I had the same problem as your having only with an installer and LENNOX .

They (Lennox) assume no responsibility for the installers quality or mistakes . I went ballistic over this , I felt Lennox should / would only have reputable people representing their product . Now that time has passed and I've cooled down , I understand why they handle these situations this way . I assumed I was using Lennox Co.

I wasn't , I was using a partime independent that happened to install Lennox brand equipment , he would probably install anyone's equipment . I specified Lennox , that's what I got ! Just with issues ! It's a sad situation , but a manufacturer couldn't possibly be responsible for all the installers required to keep the industry going , think about it every little town , berg , big city , etc.

I'm not making excuses for them , it's just the way it is . Your only hope is to find someone who knows someone that can be vouched for as far as knowledge , quality of workmanship ,etc.

Check the business yellow pages / internet for a commercial small company , check them out , check their facility , notice their equipment (trucks) if they look well kept , neat , orderly hopefully they are doing something right and are successful . Another way to find a reliable service company is check with the maintenance dept of a company that would have the need for a HV/AC contractor .

Call and Ask for the maintenance boss , see who he uses and if he's happy with that companies abilities . An example here in the Cincinnati OH area there is a company called JTM they make steak patties , hamburger patties etc. They use a company my son worked for before he started his own company . If at first you don't succeed , call another companies maintain.

dept . Be brief tell whoever you get your problem ( brief is key ) these guys are busy ! And try again , and again , till you find the right people !

I think the key thing is check with small companies for the info , their people like you and me , use a small service company not a corporate company (they probably wouldn't bother with small potatos) like us . Besides I don't trust big business !

Guest

You need to find a competent honest service company . These units are good units (water furnace brand) .

I referred my neighbor to a company I had talked to ,( he also has two units ) . They gouged him and did not resolve the issues entirely . I went to them after I had a problem with my original installers quality of repairs . They had a very nice facility , were well spoken and seemed knowledgeable .

NOT ! Luckily my neighbor used them before I did . I wound up using my sons company serviceman . My son is a mechanical / electrical contractor .

I'm lucky ! My thoughts are possibly you should contact a similar company like my sons . They are in business to succeed by doing quality work at fair prices . They are not affiliated with any major company / supplier of one particular product .

Just be sure whomever you call has a HV/AC department besides electrical , mechanical departments . My feeling is this type of company has to do quality work all the time or they go under.

I was an independent elevator company owner competing against all major companies , I hired only the best men , with good reputations . I cared about my customers and I was rewarded with a prosperous career .

Footnote : I was a blue collar worker in the elevator industry for 3/4s of my working career . I know what it's like on both sides of the fence . You may need to do some research to find a quality , honest company that will help with your issues but it might be well worth it ! Maybe I'm from a different time but I think there are still honest good people out there !

My son is one ! And I like to think I was also .

Guest

Continental Services of Prince Frederick installed the units, they worked great at first, but for the past year one unit never shuts off [in the winter] and the circulating pump has ice on the front, the contractor continues trying to fix the problem, from one thing to another for the past two months, he even put spray foam in the wall behind the thermostat as a last resort, that did not work either. Maybe they need a refresher course in how to repair the units.

I also called water furnace, they were of no help advising me that it was up to the installer for repair not them. I will never get geothermal again all the hype about geo thermal being so great is bull *** unless the factory and installer stand behind the repair

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Anonymous
map-marker Chicago, Illinois

Geothermal not worth the money....

I have not had any mechanical issues with my waterfurnace (2012).I live in Northern Indiana With A New 3400 Sq FT ranch. The issue i see is that it dosent save us money heating are house.we have a 40% discount from our energy company for using a geo and our electricity bills Last February were $750.

My average winter bills are $500-600 a month. My house is brand new , a ranch 3400sq ft. I'd be better off using a traditional gas furnace. Now my energy discount is being cancelled because the utility company NIPSCO cancelled all of the discounts.

So my bills may soon be over $900 a month. GEOS are NOT ment for cold areas like Indiana . Don't be lied to by others, it's to cold in Northern Indiana to use a geothermal. It cost way to much to run.

Now summer time my a/C bills are great $180 month.

No complaints there.... my water furnace mechanicaly runs great, I have it tuned once a year..

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Loss:
$25000
Reason of review:
dealer shouldn't be selling Geothermal s in Indiana

Preferred solution: Cold climet buyers beware

4 comments
Guest

We live in Ohio, and have not had any trouble with cooling or heat until last month when our 1999 Carrier developed a leak and was low on refrigerant. 3000 sq ft home, electric bills were ~$150 to ~$160 a month year round.

It began to run longer than normal or just wouldn't shut off. didn't think much about it since it was colder than normal, but we have had colder days in previous months. When we got the electric bill the usage had more than doubled. Average before was 1100 KWH/month.

It went 4100 KWH. We are now waiting for the home warranty and the contractor to get motivated about replacing it. (It is R22) Unfortunately the previous home owners didn't take advantage of the incentives to up date to the newer refrigerant.

But I guess when it is running that well, it is a tough sell.

It seems a lot of installers either oversize or under size causing issues.

Guest

you clearly have problems with your house or something. I live in northern Indiana and my electric bill is never $150.00.

Total electric house.

You should have your house and system looked at. Something is wrong or you have something else using electricity at your house.

Guest

THE COMPANY THAT I WORK FOR IS A LEADING WATERFURNACE DEALER FOR MID-MICHIGAN.I`M HOURLY AND HAVE NO REASON TO MISLEAD ANYONE, THERE ARE THOUSANS OF VERY SATISFIED COSTOMERS IN OUR AREA.I SUSPECT THERE IS SOME SORT OF PROBLEM .PERHAPS WITH HEATLOAD CALCULTIONS,POOR INSULATION,IMPROPER DUCT SIZING, TOO SMALL OF A DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN 1ST-2ND-3RD STAGE HEATING.MY RECOMMENDATION IS TO ASK WATERFURNACE TO RECOMMEND A DEALER TO INVESTIGATE THE PROBLEM.

THE GEOGUY

,

Guest

It sounds like your unit may be relying too much on backup electric resistance heat. If your contractor undersized the unit, it will be forced to use the backup electric heat strips (picture the inside of a toaster) to satisfy the heating load - which is about 1/5 the efficiency. If your contractor properly sized the unit, your system would only have to use resistance heat for just a few hours a year - if that - only during especially long periods of extreme cold.

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Tariyah Rgq
map-marker Apex, North Carolina

Waterfurnace Failure

I installed two Waterfurnace systems. After 4 years both have coil failures, as did my neighbor who also had two systems fail around the same time. Our dealer retired and left us to another company to handle warranty issues. That company didn't install the system so they chose to ream us on cost to replace the coils. Waterfurnace did provide replacement coils, but refused to recognize that the problem with the coils was their problem and refused to cover the nearly $2000 charged to replace the coils. There is ongoing finger pointing between the repair company and Waterfurnace. I could never recommend Waterfurnace to anyone based on my experience.
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Loss:
$2000
Anonymous
map-marker South Montrose, Pennsylvania

Water Furnace products continuosly break down.

Our new WaterFurnace system was installed in our new home about 6 years ago. We had problems with the equipment from the very beginning and besides the $500/yr. maintenance that did not include expensive replacement parts or labor the system did not function properly. After 2 years we replaced the original system with a newer "better" WaterFurnace and again experienced a constant stream of expensive repairs and malfunctioning equipment. Now after only 4 more years on our second WF system the coil is leaking and we are asked to now upgrade to a THIRD WF system. Unbelievable! In short, there is a heavy financial cost to own and operate any WF "green" system. We are now getting a price to rip the system out and replace with natural gas that is much more dependable and eliminate the ongoing costly repairs and WF equipment replacement.
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Loss:
$40000
2 comments
Guest

Sounds like you should be writing a post about your installing contractor rather than WaterFurnace since two systems failed. I don't think they'd have lasted 30 years as a business if the units broke down constantly.

Guest
reply icon Replying to comment of Guest-811205

what you will find in smaller towns is that only one authorized dealer may be available, and not even neighboring towns will come in as a second opinion so as not to 'infringe' upon an area dealer...even if they are incompetent.

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Anonymous
map-marker Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Poor Quality, Poor Customer Service!

Bought new in the year 2000, 3 ton premier unit. The water furnace has had constant expensive repairs and maintenance. Since installed, 2 compressors, 2 coils, 1 blower, 2 water pumps, several leaks. The company water furnace is no help at all with service or warranty. Even the dealer's say they are a rip-off company. The only green thing about the furnace is that you will spend a fortune for it, continually dump green $ into it. You can't save any money with your heating and cooling, the expense of operating the unit and maintenance is far higher than any monthly utility bill. Stay away from this company!
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Loss:
$3000
Anonymous
map-marker Boyertown, Pennsylvania

WaterFurnace does not stand behind it's products

Bought a $30,000 Geothermal system in 2010. I paid and had my HVAC unit serviced every six months at a cost of $140 per visit.

A valve (TVX) broke making the unit useless. The installer/servicing company informed me that there is a limited "allowance" for this repair. I called WaterFurnace, the Regional VP, coperate headquarters and no one wants too stand behind the product. WaterFurnace only paid part of the repairs leaving me wiht a huge bill!

(I thought a ten year warranty, which sounded good, would cover the product. Don't you???) Stay away from this company!

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11 comments
Guest

Do not buy from WF. I installed my unit in 2009 and since then I have come to know the repairmen by name--almost like family now.

My contractor is good and I have no complaints about them. The unit, however, is either poorly designed or poorly manufactured. Either way, the cost for the numerous repairs I have had to have done have offset most of the energy savings. The ten year warranty did cover the first pump that went out after 6 years, but now I am looking at a new pump and probably a new compressor too.

I am considering getting prices for other units and replacing this one, rather than continuing to pay for repairs for this cash-sucking black hole. It may be that no matter what unit I buy it will be poorly made. It seems most businesses manufacturers are more concerned with churn than their customers. It seems like they all make their products such that they have a short life-span to bleed money out of their customers in the future.

I hope I am wrong about this, but I am certain about WF--they have profited greatly by selling me replacement parts for my machine which I paid a great deal of money for. Stay away from this company.

Guest

WaterFurnace offers a 10 year parts warranty and a 5 year Labor allowance. That means they give you x-amount of dollars for different repairs.

If the labor allowance is up then there is no longer money granted to offset the costs.

Try finding another HVAC manufacturer with a better deal. You will find some with the same offer but none better.

Guest

I am having a similar experience... Their Customer Service is bereft of any responsibility for their customers....My Hydro Delta system in another property has worked without issues for 17 years. I think a class action suit is in order

Guest

My experience is not about the quality of WaterFurnace equipment. I admitted they do make the best equipment.

After 8 years, my WaterFurnace heat pumps have worked flawlessly.

My criticism of WaterFurnace is that they failed to step in and help me with my problem with the dealer, which WaterFurnace recognized but they refused to help me resolve the matter quickly, which easily could have been done.

Guest

im sure you paid for labor i have dealt with water furnace for years and never had a issue. besides if you buy a car and a few years later is the dealership going to fix it for free. the parts might be covered or the labor but unless you purchased the extra coverage its not going to be.

Guest

Use a reputable dealer and you shouldn't have a problem

Guest

Mr. Thomas Huntington,

I purchased a New Home on November 28th, 2003 which came with a Natural Gas water heater & furnace in it. At the time I had been told Great things about WaterFurnace geo-thermal units, so I decided to install a 5" Well, remove the

less than a year old natural gas furnace and replace it with a Super Efficient WaterFurnace.

I am starting to believe that with the extra time and large electric bills caused by My Super-Efficient WaterFurnace that I may have made a mistake, and this is Why...

I purchased and had installed My FIRST New WaterFurnace (S/N UG1420) on June 12th, 2004. After only four months, My new WaterFurnace unit went into Lock-Out. Poorman's Heating & Cooling came out on October 19th, 2004 and needed to recharge the R-410A. The leak was so small that no point of escape was found.

The WaterFurnace appeared to be operating fine until July of 2005 when the unit went into Lock-Out. Poorman's was contacted and R-410A added again, with no point of escape found.

Then on December 16th, 2005 the unit again went into Lock-Out and needed the R-410A recharged.

In the fall of 2006 after the unit went into Lock-Out I contacted WaterFurnace directly about the problems that I was having with this product. After a Rep from WaterFurnace and Poorman's met us at our home, the 30+ pin hole leaks were found in the coil that the return air flows through into the WaterFurnace.

After a meeting with David Waterman at the WaterFurnace Office/Factory, WaterFurnace decided that the air coil in the self contained geo-thermal unit was defective and

should never have leaked any R-410A through a non-moving part such as the air coil.

On November 17th, 2006 the entire unit was replaced under warranty with S/N WK2108.

Now I am having the similar problems with my SECOND WaterFurnace.

Please Help, after having TWO units that leak R-410, what does it take to get a reliable unit?

Thank-You.

Below is the chain of events of the two units (S/N UG1420 & WK2108) that have failed.

Here is the chain of events with Our First WaterFurnace...

06/12/2004 - First New WaterFurnace Installed. S/N: UG1420

Then after only 4 Months...

10/19/2004 - R-410A needed to be added, the leak was so small that no escape point was found.

Then after 9 more Months...

July 2005 - Unit went into Lock-Out and Poorman's was contacted, R-410A added again, with no point of escape found.

Then after 5 more Months...

12/16/2005 - Unit went into Lock-Out and needed R-410A added again.

Fall 2006 - Unit went into Lock-Out I contacted WaterFurnace directly about the problems that I was having. After WaterFurnace Technician and Poorman's met at my home, the 30+ pin hole leaks were found in the return air coil.

11/17/2006 - After a meeting with David Waterman at the WaterFurnace Office/Factory, WaterFurnace agreed that the air coil in the self contained geo-thermal unit was defective and should never have leaked any R-410A through a non-moving part such as the air coil. On November 17th, 2006 the unit was replaced.

Here is the chain of events with Our second WaterFurnace... S/N: WK2108

11/17/2006 - Old defective WaterFurnace removed and a New replacement unit was installed.

07/04/2009 - Went into high pressure lock-out for the FIRST time this year in AC mode. Turned power off at breakers, cleaned the air filter, turned breakers back on and the WaterFurnace operated after cleaning filter.

(filter was not very dirty)

08/27/2009 - Went into high pressure lock-out for the SECOND time this year in AC mode. Turned power off at breakers, cleaned the air filter, turned back on and the WaterFurnace operated after cleaning filter.

09/02/2009 - Went into high pressure lock-out for the THIRD time in AC mode at 9:00 PM. Turned power off at breakers, turned back on and the WaterFurnace operated.

09/02/2009 - Went into high pressure lock-out for the FORTH time in AC mode at 10:00 PM. Turned power off at breakers, turned back on and the WaterFurnace operated.

11/28/2009 - Went into lock-out in HEAT mode and the WATER FLOW indicator is flashing. The unit will now only operate in the EMERGENCY HEAT MODE.

11/30/2009 - DISCONNECTED water going out after the stage one and stage two water valves and connected a temporary hose to each valve that then dumped the waste water into sump pit. RESET Water Furnace and it started up in stage one for about 30 seconds with water flowing out of stage one valve at about 6 to 8 gallons a minute. Then it shut down and went into stage two for about 30 seconds with both valves 1 & 2 open flowing a total of 9 to 12 gallons a minute out. The unit then shut down and went into lock-out mode and the WATER FLOW indicator is now flashing and the unit will now only operate in the EMERGENCY HEAT MODE.

12/07/2009 - Poorman's added R-410A to the "sealed system" and unit now operating in stage 1 & 2 without going into lock-out and is no longer activating the expensive EMERGENCY HEAT MODE. The WaterFurnace may now be ok, but I hope this isn't going to be like My FIRST WaterFurnace unit.

01/06/2010 - WaterFurnace went into lock-out in heat mode and the WATER FLOW indicator is flashing. The unit will now only operate in the EMERGENCY HEAT MODE. Reset unit, will call Poorman's.

01/07/2010 - Water Furnace went into lock-out over-night the in heat mode and the WATER FLOW indicator is now flashing. The unit will now only operate in the EMERGENCY HEAT MODE.

01/08/2010 - Unit needed 1/2 pound of R410a added to return unit to specified in/out air temps. Waterfurnace unit working fine after adding R-410a.

07/20/2010 - Unit needed 1 pound of R410a added to return unit to specified in/out air temps. Waterfurnace unit working fine after adding R-410a.

12/08/2010 - Unit needed 1 pound of R410a added to return unit to specified in/out air temps. Waterfurnace unit working fine after adding R-410a.

06/24/2011 - Unit needed 1 pound of R410a added to return unit to specified in/out air temps. Waterfurnace unit working fine after adding R-410a.

01/02/2012 - Unit needed 2 pounds of R410a added to return unit to specified in/out air temps. Waterfurnace unit working fine after adding R-410a.

07/04/2012 - Unit needed 1.6 pounds of R410a added to return unit to specified in/out air temps. Waterfurnace unit working fine after adding R-410a.

09/08/2012 - Talked to Jill Miller at REMC event at Memorial Coliseum on 9/8/2012 and she said that the E-series units had bad coils from 3 manufacturers and that after two units failing, that WaterFurnace knows the problem and will stand behind thier product. Jill told me to contact Nicole at 478-**** to resolve this problem.

09/10/2012 - At 12:15 PM I contacted Nicole at WF and she said that she remembers me talking to David Waterman about this problem, and that my unit is out-of-warranty and that I will need to contact a local WaterFurnace dealer to resolve my problem. I asked Nicole to contact Jill Miller and see if there is any thing that can be done in warranty since both units failed within the first five year warranty (June 2004 - July 2009)

12/11/2012 - The air in/out only has a 15 degree difference, unit needs R-410 again.

Still not getting support....

Guest
reply icon Replying to comment of Guest-602013

By law an HVAC can only put refrigerant back into the system one time before having to make a repair. Obviously the service company dropped the ball on finding the leak.

There is always a way to find a leak. And the coils are the most common place to have a leak. That's where the heat exchange happens so there is a lot of expansion and constriction in the copper tubing. The entire HVAC industry had issues with leaking coils when everyone started switching to R-410A.

WaterFurnace, and many other HVAC manufacturers, took massive financial hits replacing these coils. And unlike many other companies, WF did not limit customers the number of coils that could be replace.

If a coil leaked they replaced it no questions asked as long as it was during the warranty period. They have now remedied this problem and I have not had to change out any of the new coils.

Guest

Mr. Anonymous from Boyerstown, PA,

Your equipment came standard with a 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty. Should a part within the unit fail, this warranty provides the replacement part at no charge, as well as a labor allowance to the contractor.

The labor allowance for all repairs to our units is a set flat fee. We use industry accepted flat rate times and an average hourly rate for all repairs. The rate we pay does not vary from on contractor to the next. If the amount provided does not cover the contractor’s normal fee, or if it takes longer on a particular repair than the flat fee allows, the contractor makes the decision about whether or not he will pass through the cost to the consumer. The contractor is independently owned and operated, and not under our control.

According to our records, we provided the replacement part at no charge, as well as a labor allowance to your contractor to offset their charges. At this time, WaterFurnace has honored the terms and conditions of our published warranty. If you feel the invoice is unfair, we would, again, suggest contacting your contractor to discuss their charges.

Guest
reply icon Replying to comment of Guest-511408

waterfurnace

the contractor or the dealer that you sell these units too, SHOULD be under your control , otherwise you just have one entity after another passing the buck on issues and problems with no one taking responsibility and ultimately costing the end user.

waterfurnace should be vigilant in checking out anyone who applies for a dealership via waterfurnace and make certain that these dealers have waterfurnace trained technicians working and installing these units.

the end user......the customer.....should feel more than comfortable contacting water furnace and asking for help if they have problems with DEALERS SELLING WATER FURNACE.........

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